Author Topic: Fuel pump problem 2005 Girly  (Read 9139 times)

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December 29, 2014, 03:07:00 PMReply #15 on

Offline John Stenhouse

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Air leak somewhere, it's only a guess but I know nothing about the tune side of things but whenever mine has run like a bag of spanners that's what the problems been.

Check the vacuum lines carefully, any cracks or splits get new on there, the IACV on the top of the airbox is then next thing, check it cycles via the tune programme if it's sticky in any way then it'll run rough, either new or some lube that's dry, NOT WD40!
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Orange 955i Tiger Canadian based
Norton 961S never got it, tired of waiting

December 29, 2014, 06:57:00 PMReply #16 on

Offline Fross (OP)

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Hi John, thanks for your suggestion.
Just to recap on how this problem all started. During October I noticed that the engine was becoming slightly rougher running very gradually each time I rode. At the beginning of November I decided to do a 12 minute reset to see if it would improve things. It was the next day after the reset that it ran terrible when I tried to ride down the road, as if the reset had made things ten times worse. It was then I thought it must be water in the fuel tank as described earlier in my posts. Removing the tank started the fuel pump issue which is now resolved. The vacuum pipes were all replaced with quality silicone pipes some time ago.
When I start the engine from COLD all is FINE so long as I touch NOTHING, it all goes wrong as soon as the throttle is touched.  :icon_scratch:
This morning when I connected my laptop before I started the engine I ran the fuel pump test, cooling fan test and idle stepper motor test which all sounded like they all worked correctly. :^_^
2005 Tiger plus a few Norton's dating from 1951 to 1972. New winter bike Kawasaki W650.
British Bikes don't leak oil, they mark their territory.

December 29, 2014, 10:38:52 PMReply #17 on

Offline Bixxer Bob

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For starters your O2 sensor reading is showing rich mixture, confirmed by the black smoke and needing to hold the throttle open to get some air into it.  Also, the baro reading looks high but could just be the weather.  Check your local weather report and see if the baro reading is similar, or whether there's something on the bike throwing it out.  If the ECU sees a false "high baro" it'll calculate that there's more oxygen in the air than there actually is and so put more fuel in hence being rich.

I still favour a remap; fully charged battery and laptop on mains, blow in 10173 (TOR can). It works ok with a standard can so is worth a try.  Remember to read and follow the TuneECU guide exactly because you want it to reset the trims as well. If it runs ok after a remap, you can then try 10172 if you want.  Another thing, remind me, is your 2005 a "post VIN" like mine?  If it is you need an "Adaptation" not a 12 min tune.

Also, can you get a screen shot of the test page as well?  Need to look at the IACV steps and the idle fuel trim.

For what its worth, mine runs like a bag of spanners on it's own ECU but runs fine on my spare ECU, but I haven't had time yet to see what the difference is, or whether I just have a faulty ECU.


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December 30, 2014, 04:01:27 AMReply #18 on

Offline tntmo

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Watching hopefully to see if I can glean some info to fix mine.  I really wish I had a buddy with a similar machine so I could swap parts.  I had two Suzuki DR350's and solved a lot of problems between the two by swapping parts.  It's also how we troubleshoot aircraft in the Navy sometimes. 

December 30, 2014, 09:53:45 AMReply #19 on

Offline Bixxer Bob

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Most of my stuff is applied logic and I often wonder when I start theorising about how the electronics work whether anyone in-the-know from Triumph or Sagem would nod sagely or laugh their socks off.

My main theory for a lot of these woes, and I've been through it three times now that I can think of, is the weak battery might churn the engine over properly, but can't give enough volts to the ECU for it to work properly.  Once the ECU is on low volts there's no predicting what goes on inside as it needs 12.5 volts to save the latest trim settings as it shuts down when you turn the bike off.  I think this leads to settings that are way off the mark and that, coupled with poor sensor readings also caused by low volts, results in rough or non-running.  A clean remap setting the trims to factory settings gets it running and then the ECU can sort the trims out using the O2 sensor in closed loop running.  An adaptation helps accelerate this process. 

Interestingly,  Chris Canning and I both fond an improvement in how the bike ran after fitting an MOSFET reg/rec which lifted the stator output from barely 12.7v to 14.7v which might suggest there's some evidence that good volts are essential.

Sadly, I can't give you a magic answer to your current predicament.  Each time I've been there the solution has always been, good volts, a remap, coax it into life and then ride it.  If you can give me the screenshot of the TEST page on Tune ECU so I can see the Idel trim and IACV steps we might make a little progress. 

I'm sure that when I compare the settings on my two ECUs I'm going to find wildly differing settings.  I'll try to do that today and get some base figures for you.
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December 30, 2014, 10:36:09 AMReply #20 on

Offline Fross (OP)

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Thanks BB, yes I can confirm my Tiger is a “Post VIN” (higher than # 206547).

I’ve just checked for atmospheric pressure at Met office who state 1040 over UK last night and their forecast at mid day today say it’ll be around 1036 so we do have high pressure over UK presently. But I will hopefully connect laptop again later and compare the readings and get screen shot of the test page too.

Re. Battery voltage. I totally agree with you about that. When I connected my laptop yesterday to the bike I rigged up a spare car battery onto the bike battery to make sure it won’t loose voltage. I also have the bike lights off. I was concerned that the voltage maybe too high when the engine was running. If you look at my 6 TuneECU screen shots you’ll notice the voltage in the bottom left corner fluctuates between 14.2 - 15.3 volts which I think is unusual and I can’t believe the TuneECU readout is accurate! In order to check this I’ll connect my multi-meter to the battery when I next connect up to the bike to compare readings.
2005 Tiger plus a few Norton's dating from 1951 to 1972. New winter bike Kawasaki W650.
British Bikes don't leak oil, they mark their territory.

December 30, 2014, 11:34:01 AMReply #21 on

Offline Fross (OP)

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Hi BB, I’ve searched/read your article about “adaptive tune” instead of the “12 minute tune” and found it interesting. I have performed the “12 minute tune” on a few occasions since I’ve owned my Tiger and always believed it improved the bikes running. Have I been fooling myself?

The way my bike is running presently I will not be able to follow the “adaptive tune” procedure, because once the engine has reached temperature and I blip the throttle to 3k revs it will just stall when the engine revs come back down.

I’ve now downloaded from the TuneECU site the 10173 map you suggest, I’ll give it a try, I presume I then need to carry out a TPS reset, wish me luck.

Also, can you get a screen shot of the test page as well?  Need to look at the IACV steps and the idle fuel trim
I can start the engine first to get this, but does it make a difference if I load a new map etc. with a bike that’s already warmed up?
2005 Tiger plus a few Norton's dating from 1951 to 1972. New winter bike Kawasaki W650.
British Bikes don't leak oil, they mark their territory.

December 30, 2014, 12:22:39 PMReply #22 on

Offline Fross (OP)

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Wow! Just noticed posting this problem has caused me to become a Tomcat  :ImaPoser

At least it's put a smile back on my face for a short while  :thumbsup
2005 Tiger plus a few Norton's dating from 1951 to 1972. New winter bike Kawasaki W650.
British Bikes don't leak oil, they mark their territory.

December 30, 2014, 02:31:58 PMReply #23 on

Offline Bixxer Bob

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Engine doesn't need to be running for those readings, just take a shot of what they read when you turn it on.  The steps fluctuate anyway so was just interested to se the last stored value.
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December 30, 2014, 03:03:56 PMReply #24 on

Offline Fross (OP)

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UPDATE
I connected up laptop and loaded the 10173 map. All OK. I reset TPS following these instructions:-

1. In the Test mode, double-click Reset TPS.
2. Turn off the ignition.
3. Turn on the ignition.
4. Start the engine and let it idle for one minute without touching the throttle.

I let the engine run without touching the throttle till the fan came on (running fine all the while). Then blipped the throttle it picked up clean and sounded great. My instant reaction was  :eusa_dance“great it’s fixed” I blipped it again and disaster  :BangHead no pickup it just miss fired and spluttered to a stall. I looked at the laptop and saw the error code:-

P0122 Throttle position sensor low voltage (short to ground or open circuit)

I started the engine again and watched the TPS gauge in the TuneECU screen as I opened the throttle the engine misfired and stalled but the gauge did not move. I twisted the throttle wide open and realise it doesn’t read until wide open starting at 40% and reading 79% when full open. I was getting no gauge reading when opening the throttle about the first ¼ turn.
It all makes sense, that’s why its been running perfectly each time it starts from cold, only goes wrong when I touch the throttle, because the sensor doesn’t know the throttle is being opened. Seems to me I need a new TPS. Please let me know what you think? Hopefully it's a  :thumbsup
2005 Tiger plus a few Norton's dating from 1951 to 1972. New winter bike Kawasaki W650.
British Bikes don't leak oil, they mark their territory.

December 30, 2014, 03:10:47 PMReply #25 on

Offline Fross (OP)

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When I order a new TPS I also need to order a new electrical connector for the fuel pump. Does anyone know if these are available separately? I’m guessing they only come with the loom?
2005 Tiger plus a few Norton's dating from 1951 to 1972. New winter bike Kawasaki W650.
British Bikes don't leak oil, they mark their territory.

December 30, 2014, 03:14:08 PMReply #26 on

Offline John Stenhouse

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Well it makes sense to me. By the way the value for flat out is correct it seems they don't go to 100% only 70 to 80.
Black 885i Tiger UK based
Orange 955i Tiger Canadian based
Norton 961S never got it, tired of waiting

December 30, 2014, 03:58:16 PMReply #27 on

Offline Fross (OP)

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I’ve just been looking at the TPS from below the tank, until I get the tank off I can’t tell for sure but it looks very close to the frame tube. Can anyone say whether it can be removed without having to remove the throttle bodies first? :icon_scratch:
2005 Tiger plus a few Norton's dating from 1951 to 1972. New winter bike Kawasaki W650.
British Bikes don't leak oil, they mark their territory.

December 30, 2014, 10:38:07 PMReply #28 on

Offline Bixxer Bob

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Nope, the TBs have to come off.  So you're now into another little project.  Look in the stickies for my "How To" on changing the TPS.  You'll need a new throttle body gasket and while you're doing it it's a good idea to replace the chocolate torx screws with stainless steel allen bolts.  If I remember right, I put the sizes in the sticky.

I find the TPS reading lags a bit sometimes so make double sure by just turning the ign on, not starting the bike, and slowly opening the throttle.  If you get the same result as just now you're on your way.  Good luck!  :thumbsup

BTW, I had a TPS fault years ago, but I only managed to find mine by using an occiloscope because it was failing rather than failed.
I don't want to achieve immortality through prayer, I want to achieve it through not dying...

December 31, 2014, 11:14:26 AMReply #29 on

Offline Fross (OP)

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Thanks BB, I’ve now read your very helpful instructions. :icon_study: On your advice I hooked up again this morning to double check. The TPS meter read different today, it reads 7% with throttle shut. As soon as I start to move the twist grip it goes straight to zero. While twisting open very slowly, a couple of random numbers appear (e.g. 19, 26). Once at 40% position the increase is almost sequential all the way to 86% (higher reading than yesterdays full throttle). The same result (in reverse) when slowly returning the twist grip to its stop.
I did this several times with same result each time.
I erased the error code (P0122 Throttle position sensor) but it comes straight back.
I can’t help wondering why this error message didn’t appear until I loaded a different map and tried to reset the TPS? :icon_scratch:
Tried to call my local Triumph dealer this morning to see if they have what I need, but they must be closed today.
I will post here what happens once a new TPS is installed. :icon_salut:
Many thanks for everyones help.
Regards, Fross
2005 Tiger plus a few Norton's dating from 1951 to 1972. New winter bike Kawasaki W650.
British Bikes don't leak oil, they mark their territory.