TigerTriple.com

Tiger Time => Girly Talk (1999 - 2006 Tigers) => Engine and Transmission => Topic started by: HockleyBoy on October 17, 2016, 01:20:55 PM

Title: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 17, 2016, 01:20:55 PM
So, on Thursday night I left work on the Tiger and noticed that the clutch cable was a bit slack, adjusted up on the lever adjuster and carried on. A few junctions later I noticed it was slack again so tried to adjust further but had run out of adjustment. Just managed to get home but by the time I hit my road I effectively had no clutch.

The clutch cable was replaced less that 12 months ago (with an OEM from Triumph) so I don't think the cable has broken but I have ordered a new one to be on the safe side. I can adjust the cable on the lower adjuster so that it just about works but it means the arm is pointing forwards and has almost no movement.

Any ideas anyone? am wondering if it is likely the rod from the clutch to the cable is shearing or whether its just time for a new clutch (she's an 06 with just under 90k on the clock)

Would appreciate your opinions on this.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Sin_Tiger on October 17, 2016, 02:09:05 PM
What does your oil look like? Rapid deterioration like that is unusual  :icon_scratch:
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Timbox2 on October 17, 2016, 02:16:03 PM
Although 90k aint bad from clutch, as Sin says, to go all of a sudden is odd. I cant remember which way round the clutch wears on these. On my GS the cable went tighter as the clutch wore, does it normally go slacker on the Tigers? Dont know. Although rare, I have heard of the lifter arm itself wearing where it operates on the pull rod in the centre of the clutch. Whatever I think you aint got no choice but to pull the covers, if you can get the operating arm facing forward something definitely aint right.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 17, 2016, 02:36:09 PM
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on October 17, 2016, 02:09:05 PM
What does your oil look like? Rapid deterioration like that is unusual  :icon_scratch:

Oil should be ok (changed less than 2k ago with my usual grade of Motul) but I will check tonight.

Havent looked at anything properly yet, was a bit p**ed off as am having an expensive month on all things mechanical (Landrover Defender headgasket and transmission as well as the clutch on my wife's Citroen) so I just stuck the bike in the garage and got the train to work the next day.

Definitely don't like the train so I need to fix the bike asap!
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 17, 2016, 02:37:59 PM
Quote from: Timbox2 on October 17, 2016, 02:16:03 PM
Whatever I think you aint got no choice but to pull the covers, if you can get the operating arm facing forward something definitely aint right.

Oh well, might as well order some gaskets and take a look!
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Chris Canning on October 17, 2016, 04:07:55 PM
When Tim sends me texts about 955 Tigers on ebay with 4800 miles at £2750 makes any serious repairs highly dubious.

At 90k gotta be plates at the very least.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Sin_Tiger on October 17, 2016, 04:17:31 PM
My Spidey senses tell me 200 TDI  :augie

My oil question was more about quality rather than amount or last change, more to put your mind at ease than anything else. Having said that I think TB2 is right, no point trying to second guess it and the suddenness also made me wonder about the mechanism.

Not my part of ship so I'll step back and let the more savvy guide you.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Chris Canning on October 17, 2016, 04:51:47 PM
See on ebay that a plate kit is 60 quid so cheap enough.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 17, 2016, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Sin_Tiger on October 17, 2016, 04:17:31 PM
My Spidey senses tell me 200 TDI  :augie



First of the 300tdis 1994, fixed now. Working my way through the transmission now, I have had her since 3 years old and she has 180k on the clock, unfortunately as soon as I fix one thing the problem moves onto the next weak link!
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 17, 2016, 06:11:58 PM
Quote from: Chris Canning on October 17, 2016, 04:51:47 PM
See on ebay that a plate kit is 60 quid so cheap enough.

From what I have read I suspect the clutch lifter has failed in some way as it was sudden but will definitely put a new set of plates and springs in while I am in there, at 90k they have done well and £60 isn't bad for the kit.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Bixxer Bob on October 17, 2016, 09:28:28 PM
If its going as you say, my guess is either the weld round the top of the lifter arm is failing or the bottom of the lifter arm itself. 
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 18, 2016, 03:04:37 PM
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on October 17, 2016, 09:28:28 PM
If its going as you say, my guess is either the weld round the top of the lifter arm is failing or the bottom of the lifter arm itself.

There seem to have been a few failures around this on other Triumphs, haven't seen any on Tigers though.

Just in the process of ordering the bits so I can have a look at the weekend.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 23, 2016, 12:15:57 PM
Anyone know how many plates there should be in an EBC clutch kit?, I actually ordered the Ferodo kit but was sent an EBC which I will be complaining about. However I need the bike so Having soaked the plates overnight I find there are only 9 opposed to 10 in the bike when I opened her up this morning
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Chris Canning on October 23, 2016, 02:15:34 PM
Honest answer is I don't know but if you go into the World of Triumph site and look at the parts fiche their are two different clutches for the mag wheeled tiger depending on the engine number can't be any more help than that sorry.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Timbox2 on October 23, 2016, 03:17:38 PM
If I was asked on the spot I would have said 9,  7 of one type and 2 of the other, but that is a guess.

Just checked my OE manual, and it does state 9 Friction plates and doesnt say any different for early or late type??

Outer and inner plates 3.80mm (service limit 3.60)

All others 3.30mm ( Service limit 3.10)
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 23, 2016, 03:22:58 PM
Thanks Tim, not sure I have the right plates as it's not very clear mine is the 955 with the 1050 casings. The existing plates aren't terrible so have cleaned them up and oiled them before putting them back. Have changed the springs, lifter arm and dust seal and am in the process of sealing her back up. Clutch feels ok now but I won't know until I have finished and can test ride which is about an hour away.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Timbox2 on October 23, 2016, 06:05:34 PM
Quote from: HockleyBoy on October 23, 2016, 03:22:58 PM
Thanks Tim, not sure I have the right plates as it's not very clear mine is the 955 with the 1050 casings. The existing plates aren't terrible so have cleaned them up and oiled them before putting them back. Have changed the springs, lifter arm and dust seal and am in the process of sealing her back up. Clutch feels ok now but I won't know until I have finished and can test ride which is about an hour away.

Im not sure EBC are listing the kits correctly, they seem to list the same clutch for all 955 Tigers, CK5589.  On the Triumph parts fiche they show that from Engine no 232539 onwards its the same plates as a 1050 Tiger, which is I assume the engines with the 1050 casings. EBC list a CK5599 for 1050 Tigers, which is probably what you need, but Im not sure.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Chris Canning on October 23, 2016, 07:07:02 PM
Can't offer any more than a complication because the silencer that fits 855 also fits the 955 but has a totally different number so untill someone tries different plates who knows what fits what but clearly their are 3 different numbers,one for the spoke wheel 955 and two for the mag wheel version depending on the vin number.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 23, 2016, 07:10:21 PM
Thanks Tim, have spent several hours on the net only to come to the same conclusion as you that it's ck5599 I need (at least it has 10 plates!). Haven't refilled the oil so will order this one and try again.

Looks like I have a spare ck5589 set if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 23, 2016, 07:14:39 PM
Quote from: Chris Canning on October 23, 2016, 07:07:02 PM
Can't offer any more than a complication because the silencer that fits 855 also fits the 955 but has a totally different number so untill someone tries different plates who knows what fits what but clearly their are 3 different numbers,one for the spoke wheel 955 and two for the mag wheel version depending on the vin number.

It is a bit of a nightmare on the 06 bikes because even the parts shops aren't clear what fits what as the model was in transition. Looks like mine has the 1050 clutch as it's the only one with the same number of plates.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Timbox2 on October 23, 2016, 08:23:15 PM
Quote from: HockleyBoy on October 23, 2016, 07:14:39 PM
It is a bit of a nightmare on the 06 bikes because even the parts shops aren't clear what fits what as the model was in transition. Looks like mine has the 1050 clutch as it's the only one with the same number of plates.

Sounds good mate, just realised my Triumph Workshop manual is a 2005 edition so doesnt know about the later clutch either. So, one for the memory banks, later engine covers equals 10 plates.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: benebob on October 26, 2016, 01:42:48 PM
Sorry I'm late to the game, yes you have the 1050 clutch if you got 1050 cases.  I replaced mine about a year ago (plates look fine,cleaned and scored 'em and new discs and seal.  Didn't stop my drag problem though.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: Timbox2 on October 26, 2016, 03:55:13 PM
Quote from: benebob on October 26, 2016, 01:42:48 PM
Sorry I'm late to the game, yes you have the 1050 clutch if you got 1050 cases.  I replaced mine about a year ago (plates look fine,cleaned and scored 'em and new discs and seal.  Didn't stop my drag problem though.  Good luck!

Ah, Ive seen a few posts about clutch drag on the 1050's on other forums, some blame oil specs, others say its not fixable apart from changing oil sooner. Im sure I came across one post that hinted at Triumph having some sort of mod that involved getting more oil onto the plates. Its interesting that if you check parts fiche for later Tiger Sports and speed Triples it would appear that Triumph have modified the plates a few times, they even do a "Clutch Pack" for the very latest bikes, friction plates and discs all together.

This sounds uncannily like a certain BMW K bike clutch issue, though to a lesser degree I think, eh Chris??
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 26, 2016, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: benebob on October 26, 2016, 01:42:48 PM
Sorry I'm late to the game, yes you have the 1050 clutch if you got 1050 cases.  I replaced mine about a year ago (plates look fine,cleaned and scored 'em and new discs and seal.  Didn't stop my drag problem though.  Good luck!

Thanks, we got there in the end, have had an EBC CK5599 kit delivered today which is specified as the 1050 clutch and has the right number of plates. My plates looked ok but when I measured them they are worn which I think has contributed to the problem with the problem/wear on the lifter arm.

Plates will be in the oil tonight and all being well fitted tomorrow. Hopefully I will be back in business by this time tomorrow!
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 26, 2016, 04:30:47 PM
Quote from: Timbox2 on October 26, 2016, 03:55:13 PM
Ah, Ive seen a few posts about clutch drag on the 1050's on other forums, some blame oil specs, others say its not fixable apart from changing oil sooner. Im sure I came across one post that hinted at Triumph having some sort of mod that involved getting more oil onto the plates. Its interesting that if you check parts fiche for later Tiger Sports and speed Triples it would appear that Triumph have modified the plates a few times, they even do a "Clutch Pack" for the very latest bikes, friction plates and discs all together.

This sounds uncannily like a certain BMW K bike clutch issue, though to a lesser degree I think, eh Chris??

Havent had too much in the way of clutch drag on the old clutch although I have experienced the problem of finding neutral when the bike is hot on a couple of occasions which may be related. I do change my oil every 5k though.

With a bit of luck the new plates will be fine for the rest of the life of the bike.


Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: benebob on October 26, 2016, 08:00:03 PM
Don't foget to clean your steels with some brake cleaner then scuff 'em up to keep the sticking down.  I also change my oil at 5k or less but even after an oil change can pull up to a light when the oil is up to temp and in first I can feel the bike want to move forward if I blip the throttle. 
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on October 27, 2016, 08:55:51 PM
So plates replaced, lifter arm replaced, springs replaced and all back together. No better than when I started!

Looks like it may be the pressure plate bearing as there is a fair amount of free play in and out on the lifter rod. Just bought a second hand pressure plate on eBay, hopefully that will be it as am running out of things to replace.

Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on November 01, 2016, 12:40:27 PM
Have now replaced the pressure plate (and bearing), and lifter rod with parts from eBay. Clutch is now in adjustment and seems to be working well which is just as well as there isn't much more to replace!

Have been for a 50 mile test ride and other than needing a little more adjustment it was fine. Hopefully this is the end of my clutch problem, it hasn't been fun but at least I have learnt a lot about Triumph clutches😀

'Triumph, turning riders into mechanics since.........'
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on July 23, 2018, 01:05:44 PM
Update on this

Clutch problem has returned and I have lived with it for quite a while but it isn't ideal so I thought I would have another crack at it.

I purchased a surflex clutch kit (£160) which included friction discs and steel a while ago but hadn't fitted it.  As I had an hour or so free on Friday I thought I would fit it and hopefully see some improvement.

One hour and 10 minutes all fitted and ready to go (I am getting pretty quick at this now!), test ride and all seems ok. Ride to work this morning and exactly the same as before, engine warm in traffic and the plates start sticking, By the time I get to work, no chance of finding neutral without adjusting loads of slack out of the cable!

Getting a bit p1%^ed off with the whole thing now  :BangHead

Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: mark4 on July 23, 2018, 02:29:26 PM
My experience of bike clutches is not on the Tiger, but may still apply..

Bikes can be VERY fussy about the stack height (total thickness of plates and steels). If this is thicker than factory (and aftermarket often are) then you can get problems with either not disengaging properly or the plates could stick together as there is no clearance for them to be lubed by the oil properly. This could also lead to difficulty changing gear or finding neutral. (my Tiger is very fussy over oil and gets sticky shift if I don't put synthetic oil in there...but that's another story..).

My other bike is an FJ1200 and I had problems with the stack height. In the end after trying EBC plates I bought some factory fibre plates and new steels which brought the stack back to factory specs. Since then I've had no problems. So my advice would be to buy the Triumph plates and steels according to your engine number (from Fowlers or WorldofTriumph). IF you do this, measure the full stack before fitting to compare with the ones you have in already and maybe the EBC's if you still have them. If they are the same then that is likely not your problem, but if they are markedly different (more than 1 or 2 mm for the stack) then that could be your issue...

It's just my thoughts from my own expensive experience!  :BangHead  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on July 23, 2018, 05:57:21 PM
I know what you mean about the stack height however, the problem here appears to be design fault in that the OEM stack does not allow sufficient oil flow. 2005/6 was the transition year to the new 1050 motor and parts were used in the 955 Tiger. Unfortunately the early 1050 clutch is known to be a dog across the Triumph range and is very prone to sticking plates.

Triumph have tried to address the problem with revised clutch rod (spiral oil way cut into it) but with limited success.

I have pretty much exhausted the options and my budget on a bike worth nothing so will just have to live with it for now.
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: mark4 on July 23, 2018, 07:41:31 PM
I know what you mean about exhausting the options..it gets expensive, frustrating and confusing.

I have the later model with a 222 engine number but am not sure if that has the 1050 parts in it. Either way, I don't have issues with the clutch, but then not all bikes would I guess. I have tested it on a 3000 mile trip through Europe in all sorts of conditions and it held up well.

I hope you find a solution. :)
Title: Re: Clutch
Post by: HockleyBoy on July 24, 2018, 10:24:14 AM
Hopefully you are one of the lucky ones, its definitely not all bikes but from reading various forums a significant number have had issues. Mine is also the very late model 05/06.

I also have another 05 but the earlier model and it has never had a clutch problem in 70k miles, seems to be just the transition bike when it does occur.
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