I've had my trials and tribulations with this Tiger, but all in all I like the bike. I took a fun four day ride last month, from California to Arizona, Utah, Nevada and back and it performed ok. Never got over 35mpg and the idle was low but it had no problem starting.
Shortly after I got home, the idle issue got worse, the mileage got worse and the bike wouldn't start after I stop to top off the fuel tank. I'm currently getting about 30 mpg.
The idle is low, maybe 800 rpm or less. It dies if I don't blip the throttle. It won't start cold most of the time unless I give it some throttle. I tried to mess around with the stepper motor settings on TuneECU and reset TPS but it doesn't seem to help.
The hot re-start is the worst issue. Every time I get fuel I have to push start the bike (not easy by myself!) or take a 15 minute break or longer to let it cool off. Once it cools down it starts up ok, idles like poo. Embarrassing when I go on group rides, but my friends are getting good at pushing the Tiger and I'm getting good at finding gas stations on top of hills.
I ordered up the parts to extend the fuel lines so I can balance the fuel injectors but they aren't here yet. I'm going to start there and move on from that point.
Does anyone else have any input? Something to look for? Help me keep this Tiger purring!
Hey tntmo !! have ya read this...............
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14076.0.html
sounds similar me thinks !!
KK
Recommend you start by replacing the corrugated hose with silicone including the one that runs to the ECM if it is not done yet. Check/perform a throttle body balance. Symptoms you describe could possible indicate a fuel problem such as low volume or a weak pump. Since you are diving in, check the fuel filter and the fuel lines which are submerged with the filter/pump. Mine started breaking down when I performed my filter service last and a bunch of crap in the filter. Most of my drivability issues are due to the throttle bodies out of sync (and I reset the fuel trims when I do.....which appears to get done when I disconnect the battery to pull the tank). Rarely do individuals comment on poor injectors or flow out of the injectors.
My bike has 85,000 miles on it, so a weak pump or bad fuel filter wouldn't surprise me. I checked all the vacuum lines a few months ago and just checked the ECU one but will check them again when I do the throttle body balance.
I forgot to mention that the bike has a really bad off idle stumble from 2k-3k rpms. It didn't do that before either, was always fairly smooth.
Is there an aftermarket fuel pump that people are having luck with? I know for my Husqvarna TE450 some folks are using a pump from a Toyota car, it's way cheaper.
So I got my fuel hose extension pieces in, also ordered metal quick disconnects for the tank since mine were plastic. I removed the tank, drained it and removed the fuel pump plate. Seemed to be a bit of water and debris in the bottom of the tank so I cleaned that up along with a plugged drain hole. It required a drill to get through the blockage.
I replaced the fuel filter, I used one from a 2002 Chevy Impala. Close to the same size and it's a metal body filter. One of the plastic quick disconnects snapped off immediately when I tried to remove it, possibly cracked this whole time? I'm hoping that's a part of the problem with the poor mileage.
I ran out of time to get the throttle bodies balanced, should get that done tonight. I removed the baffle from the air box while I had it off. Will post up when the balance is done and see what the results are.
Last night I balanced the throttle bodies, they were pretty close anyway but I touched them up a bit. Replaced all the lines from the IACV with silicone hose, even though I tested them all and they held vacuum just fine.
I only started it and ran it in the garage, but it doesn't seem to be idling any better and it wouldn't start after it got hot. So far I have time and money invested and no improvement. I'll hook up the tune cable today hopefully and reset everything. This is annoying!
Well I ran the Tune ECU program, reinstalled the fuel map and reset the TPS. I let it run for about 25 minutes or so but never got the TPS light on the lower part of the screen to light up. :^_^ Still does not re-start hot.
Seems to me that it would be an electrical issue. When electrical components get hot they build resistance. Only thing that throws off this idea is the fact that it bump starts easily. :^_^
You didn't mention whether it smells of fuel when it's running, or if your friends smell it rich when they are following you but I'm guessing yes.
Lets start with the basics and assume you don't have a blocked breather in the filler cap, the valve clearances are good and the plugs are new (ish). Does the IACV cycle smoothly when tested on TuneECU?
You've done the TB balance and the IACV hoses so there has to be some other reason why it's using so much fuel. (When it's running does it pull cleanly and strong or is it flat but without a misfire?)
Can you take a screen shot of your TuneECU data page so we can see the trim settings etc?
In the past, when I had a tickover problem it was down to the TPS setting; if you can get it to the right perameters to light the TPS button you should find that will help, but I don't think it's going to sort your consumption. Either you have a sticky injector (and I've not come across any injector problems up till now) or the ECU is massively mis-reading the air going through the TBs and raising the fuelling to match.
First steps are to get us a screenshot and to get the TPS reset done.
As an aside, a condition of the crank sensor failing is it cuts out when hot and runs when it cools down. Not your scenario I know, but one to watch for...
It does have a rich, fuel smell when it runs. Another symptom that I don't know if I posted before is that it backfires on decel more than it used to. It does rev cleanly, even more so now that it's been balanced/air box baffle removed/new map loaded. In fact, I think it runs better than it has since I've owned it but it's still not idling very good and still won't start when it's hot.
The valves were checked less than 3000 miles ago and plugs were looked at then but not replaced. I may just as well replace the plugs and check the valves again just to eliminate that.
I will get some screen shots from TuneECU and keep fiddling with it.
I went through a period where mine was similar albeit not so much with the hot start. Couldn't figure it out and spent ages on it. Part of it proved to be incorrect reset of the TPS meant the ECU didn't know where the f**K it was. The rest was mainly me messing with the trims trying to fix the former.
Hang on, just remembered, (I hate this ageing thing :BangHead) another time it had a U/S O2 sensor which had gone open circuit. It might be worth checking yours out too. Thinking about it, if the O2 is sensing incorrectly, ie it's telling the ECU the mix is weak, the ECU will richen up to try to compensate. Check for Fault Codes and Have a look at the Lambda sensor voltage on TuneECU. It should be 0.46 volts or thereabouts. Also check the sensor heater circuit is ok. Open circuit means it's junk.
In your case, running rich, I'd expect TuneECU to show the sensor voltage to be stuck at zero volts or nearly zero indicating to the ECU the mixture is weak and thus producing a long injector shot giving the richness you have. It's worth remembering that an old car trick to test the sensor was to take a vacuum line off the inlet manifold to let in extra air and make the exhaust appear weak while monitoring the sensor voltage, so before you decide the sensor is junk, just be absolutely sure you don't have any air leaks. The manifold gasket is prone to failing for instance; I wrote a sticky about it.
If the sensor is junk you can get a generic one from Ebay a lot less than from Triumph and simply swap the connector over. Even the wires are the same colours!!
I've been busy trying to keep my RV running, had to replace three batteries, alternator and a fuel pump (inside a 75 gallon fuel tank that of course was almost full) but finally had a bit of time to mess with the Tiger.
I checked the valve clearance, all within spec. I pulled the plugs, they appear to be a nice tan color so I didn't replace them. I hooked up the tune cable and reinstalled a fuel map, reset the TPS and then started the bike. I let it run until it was hot and got some screen shots. Here it is at idle after it had been warmed up for quite a while.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7540/15780037145_eb7d95f78e.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/q3qPgX)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/q3qPgX) by tntmo2 (https://www.flickr.com/people/77815129@N04/), on Flickr
This is the tests page of TuneECU. None of the gage stuff works on this page, not sure if that's normal?
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7558/15778163901_03d51bddce.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/q3gdqD)Untitled1 (https://flic.kr/p/q3gdqD) by tntmo2 (https://www.flickr.com/people/77815129@N04/), on Flickr
This shot is while I was holding the revs at 4,000 rpm. As you can see, the TPS is only reading 1. Normal? If I slowly rev the bike, the TPS barely moves. If I blip the throttle, it goes up to maybe 20.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5607/15594881377_5b6456b38e.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pL4QV8)Untitled2 (https://flic.kr/p/pL4QV8) by tntmo2 (https://www.flickr.com/people/77815129@N04/), on Flickr
With the bike not running, key on/kill switch on and connected to TuneECU, I rotated the throttle all the way from idle to WOT. The highest TPS reading was 72. Should it go to 100? I also never got either light on the bottom of screen to light up.
After the bike was hot, of course it wouldn't restart. Since I had it hooked to the charger, I hit it with the boost function. It cranked over much faster and did start, although even on boost it took a bit longer than it should have.
Ok, lots of information and a few pictures. If there is anything else I need to get info about that would be helpful, please let me know. I'm about at my wits end with this bike, I have enough other vehicles that need my time.
A long shot but have you checked the charging, my fuel consumption has got progressively worse for a period before each reg rec or stator failure. Tickover has also been affected and after replacing the defective item the bike has always run more smoothly.
It might just be a ME thing but if I had me bike plugged into a computer it wouldn't be online or running anything else !!
KK
Quote from: HockleyBoy on November 13, 2014, 06:48:58 PM
A long shot but have you checked the charging, my fuel consumption has got progressively worse for a period before each reg rec or stator failure. Tickover has also been affected and after replacing the defective item the bike has always run more smoothly.
Seems to be charging fine. It's at about 14 volts at idle.
Ok, first the TPS reading. It'll never read 100% but 78% is normal, 72% is a bit low. Next, as Kenny says, stop all the other computer functions while you're running TuneECU. I was using a fairly old laptop at Chris Canning's last weekend and it was difficult to see a smooth TPS action because the laptop couldn't process the data and update the screen fast enough.
I can't comment on TPS reading "1" because I can't get to mine at the moment and can't remember. When it's hot and won't start, is the rev counter responding to the starter motor cranking it over??? I'm thinking maybe the crank sensor is the culprit here, although they don't usually start at all when hot. Any discrepancy between what you hear the engine doing on the starter and what you see on the rev counter would point this way. I'd still do a continuity check on the heater element for the O2 sensor too. Oh, and run the IACV diagnostic while you have the airbox off and watch / listen to it working just to make sure it's not faulty too.
I can double check, maybe it was 78% I was getting on the TPS wide open throttle.
Will ensure all programs are off next time on the computer.
Guess what you're saying about the hot start issue is to see if I'm getting any RPM readings while cranking it over? YES
I'll check the O2 sensor, am I looking for continuity, an ohms range...or what exactly? you should have a reading of around 4-8 ohms on white /brown pink. If it's U/S it'll most likely be open circuit
I have run the IACV with the tank off, it cycles smoothly.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on November 13, 2014, 11:22:08 PM
Ok, first the TPS reading. It'll never read 100% but 78% is normal, 72% is a bit low. Next, as Kenny says, stop all the other computer functions while you're running TuneECU. I was using a fairly old laptop at Chris Canning's last weekend and it was difficult to see a smooth TPS action because the laptop couldn't process the data and update the screen fast enough.
I can't comment on TPS reading "1" because I can't get to mine at the moment and can't remember. When it's hot and won't start, is the rev counter responding to the starter motor cranking it over??? I'm thinking maybe the crank sensor is the culprit here, although they don't usually start at all when hot. Any discrepancy between what you hear the engine doing on the starter and what you see on the rev counter would point this way. I'd still do a continuity check on the heater element for the O2 sensor too. Oh, and run the IACV diagnostic while you have the airbox off and watch / listen to it working just to make sure it's not faulty too.
Having gotten a result on Chris's bike, check your coil dwell intervals as well, they should all be the same, and, judgi8ng by Chris's bike, around 1.68 msecs.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on November 16, 2014, 11:02:12 PM
Having gotten a result on Chris's bike, check your coil dwell intervals as well, they should all be the same, and, judgi8ng by Chris's bike, around 1.68 msecs.
If that's the numbers that are on the TuneECU screen, I'm getting 1.5(ish) on all of them, and all the numbers are a bit different. The screen shot I took at 4k RPM's is 1.529 / 1.519 / 1.538
Should I be looking for a set of coils?
They are the correct numbers and they look fine. I found an old screenshot of my readings and they are nearly the same.
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on November 17, 2014, 10:40:20 PM
They are the correct numbers and they look fine. I found an old screenshot of my readings and they are nearly the same.
Darn, I was hoping they were way off and I needed new coils. I still have to read out the O2 sensor.
The O2 heater resistance should be as I said, checked with an Ohm meter, O2 sensor voltage on TuneECU should be about 0.46v
Here's what TuneECU had for O2sensor information.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8643/15633973928_3a4c2c9bb8.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pPwcLC)Untitled3 (https://flic.kr/p/pPwcLC) by tommoudry (https://www.flickr.com/people/105272028@N03/), on Flickr
Have a go at cycling the Idle Control Valve (IACV) via TuneEcu, apologies if the tank is back on, to make sure it is moving up and down the bore.
Try knocking the Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT) down to about 3.7 and see what it runs like. It should run VERY bad at about 2.5 and 5.0. This adjustment is like the main jet in a carb.
Take Idle Fuel Trim to zero.
Perform 'blip' test to ascertain setting of IACV.
Cross purposes here, working on three different bikes, I thought the IACV had been done but reading back it seems not. It's another likely suspect.
I have observed the IACV operation while the tank was off, while turning the key on/off.
I haven't ran the IACV test with TuneECU with the tank off, though.
I will try the LTFT settings, etc.
LTFT @ 4.5 explains the poor fuel economy. My 05 runs well @ the 3.7ish mark but with the methanol/oxygenated fuel (same in your neck of the woods) my mileage is 40-42mpg with my tweaked TOR tune.
Does your Tigger happen to be a California model to where it has an evaporative cannister tied into the IACV lines(since your profile states San Diego)? Several things to look at if you do (check valves stuck, sticky purge solenoid, etc.) Mine is a CA model and wreaked havoc on my IACV until the day it "magically fell off into a million bits". Hoses were modified and the "purge solenoid to nowhere" zipped tied/harness connected keeps the ECM happy.
The hot soak issue still bothers me....usually a fuel issue. Did you check the fuel pressure? Gauges can be rented for free at Autozone/Orielly's but you might have to adapt to the line(s). Your model has a pressure regulator with a vacuum line? If it does I would assume you checked it for leak and vacuum source?
Busy as always, military life gets in the way of fixing the Tiger. I have a rare day off so I'm going to set the LTFT, see if that helps anything
If the bike was originally a CA model, all the evap stuff was removed before I got it. There is nothing connected to the extra wiring harness plug that's near the throttle bodies. It's always been that way, ran well before so....?
Have not check fuel pressure. I don't think it has a pressure regulator with vacuum line?
I ordered some eBay coils, since I've seen a few people with that issue. I figured I'm about due to start throwing parts at this thing.
Quote from: Stitch on November 20, 2014, 03:51:09 AM
LTFT @ 4.5 explains the poor fuel economy. My 05 runs well @ the 3.7ish mark but with the methanol/oxygenated fuel (same in your neck of the woods) my mileage is 40-42mpg with my tweaked TOR tune.
Does your Tigger happen to be a California model to where it has an evaporative cannister tied into the IACV lines(since your profile states San Diego)? Several things to look at if you do (check valves stuck, sticky purge solenoid, etc.) Mine is a CA model and wreaked havoc on my IACV until the day it "magically fell off into a million bits". Hoses were modified and the "purge solenoid to nowhere" zipped tied/harness connected keeps the ECM happy.
The hot soak issue still bothers me....usually a fuel issue. Did you check the fuel pressure? Gauges can be rented for free at Autozone/Orielly's but you might have to adapt to the line(s). Your model has a pressure regulator with a vacuum line? If it does I would assume you checked it for leak and vacuum source?
Regarding the LTFT mine runs 4.18 on both ECUs and returns around 50mpg (that's UK gallons).
It still has a fuel relief valve and probably a check valve in the pump since it is a return-less fuel delivery system. You may want to visit checking the fuel psi and see if it bleeds off before you start throwing parts at it to ensure the fuel items are up to snuff.
Quote from: Stitch on December 17, 2014, 03:31:23 AM
It still has a fuel relief valve and probably a check valve in the pump since it is a return-less fuel delivery system. You may want to visit checking the fuel psi and see if it bleeds off before you start throwing parts at it to ensure the fuel items are up to snuff.
Returnless fuel delivery? It has a supply and return line on the tank.
2005 was the changeover year. You've got a pre-VIN model, does it have Girly eyelashes around the headlights??? (How Girlies got their name....)
Return-less fuel delivery was a design change VIN#207447 and higher. Regardless of the type, I would still check the fuel pressure. You stated you had a bunch of miles (which warrants at least checking it) and the "hot soak" condition seems to be the last thing you need to sort (if I am reading through the post correctly)
Just read back through some of this and noticed your O2 sensor is showing a lean mixture suggesting (as Stitch's fuel pressure idea suggests) not enough fuel or too much air. Simple check for the fuel pressure is turn ign on, liten to pump till it shuts off, turn off ign and disconnect the fuel line. If it spurts (careful not to have any sparks etc) like mine does, you have at least some pressure.
If you have fuel pressure you're looking at air leaks (IACV, hoses etc etc)
You might want to look here where the problem is the opposite as far as O2 goes:
http://www.tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,14155.msg106893.html#msg106893
Screenshots for mine running ok:
Have you noticed the Baro is always the same value with TECU?????
Probably something I have forgotten!!
Don't think so Nige, mine's 1020 here, the earlier shot is 1006 and in a different thread it's 1031. The value in mine 1020 is in KPa which converts to 765 mmHg roughly what Tuneboy says.
Maybe Kent is like California (in that the weather never changes).... :ImaPoser
Well I've been in and out of port a lot, haven't had a lot of time to mess with El Tigre but I decided to pull the injectors and clean them using some of the online videos as a guide. Seemed to help a little bit.
I also decided to buy a more powerful battery, so did some research and decided on a Shorai lithium ion. Now it starts hot, cold, medium, doesn't matter. Turns over noticeably faster, so I am considering it money well spent since I no longer have to pay homeless people at the gas station to help push start my bike.
I won't be home much for the rest of the year, so this might be as far as I get troubleshooting the bike. I was considering selling it before deployment, but since it starts every time now I am holding onto it and trying to work out the details. I only need 14,000 more miles to turn it over 100K.
Might be an idea to check your battery voltage (at the battery) with the engine running, just to eliminate iffy charging components.
Over the years sooo many seemingly unrelated running problems are eventually trace to the charging circuit. these old girls absolutely don't like poor batteries or volts, it causes all sorts of problems which I strongly believe is down to the ECU not being able to manage the trims correctly on low volts.
I'm suspecting my charging system is not perfect. It's putting out just a touch over 13VDC at idle, and above 3-4K it's putting out 13.3-13.4VDC. Seems that it should be doing better than that.
Edit to add: That was measured as soon as I got home from my commute, so it was hot. I just checked it after it sat for a few hours, I get about 13.7 at idle and 13.9 revved up.
One simple test to perform if the battery has either gone flat or low voltage is to reset the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), and perform adaptation to the letter with TuneEcu. It is a simple plug and play event.
Looks like the charging system could do with the Sasquatch mod. Plenty of info on here and will give quite an improvement in that area. The voltage is lower than it should be.
Those voltage readings are with the Sasquatch mod already performed, running a MOSFET regulator.
Quote from: metalguru on February 20, 2015, 11:33:04 AM
One simple test to perform if the battery has either gone flat or low voltage is to reset the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), and perform adaptation to the letter with TuneEcu. It is a simple plug and play event.
Looks like the charging system could do with the Sasquatch mod. Plenty of info on here and will give quite an improvement in that area. The voltage is lower than it should be.
On a MOSFET you should be getting better than that. I'd be looking for resistance joints ie dirty connectors, weak fuses etc. If that turns up nothing check out the stator output using the Electrexworld guide.