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Girly Bikes 1999 - 2006 Tigers => Girly Talk => ECU and Fuel Injection => Topic started by: TR5TRIDER on July 03, 2017, 09:53:50 PM

Title: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 03, 2017, 09:53:50 PM
Recently my 2000 Tiger 885i has left me on the side of the road 2 times. After roadside exam of electrical connectors and fuses in order, to determine why I could not hear the fuel pump run after switching on ignition the problem still existed, no fuel pump prime/pressurization. Called for help to transport bike and upon arrival of transporter tried the ignition and did hear the pump so hit starter and bike fired and was able to ride back to base. Today the same thing happened and I left the bike in a churchyard while I called around for backup. I estimate elapsed time at 45 min. to 1 hr. Turned on ignition and heard the familiar fuel pump sound the old girl started and I was able to ride back to home.

I have used the search feature of this forum and found no help. I believe that the electrical connections are good as I cleaned and greased them and I did not see any corrosion. That leaves the pump and possibly the pressure regulator as the next places to investigate. Anyone recognize the symptoms? Does the fuel pump have a temperature sensing feature?
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: John Stenhouse on July 03, 2017, 11:48:51 PM
The ECU will have a temperature sensor, since it uses that to decide how much fuel to put in to start, but the pump itself wont.

Only thing I can think of from the top of my head is maybe the ignition switch, Key switch. They have been known to break connections on the back of the ignition block. Check the solder joints, I guess an easy way to check is next time it does it, give the wires at the back of the switch a wiggle.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 04, 2017, 12:44:35 AM
It seems that the problem is cured by the passage of time. After some time passes the pump will agin become functional. So I am thinking that the problem is related to temperature and after a period of time (cooling?) the fuel pump is again functional.Will try wiggling wiring at ignition switch the next time this happen.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Timbox2 on July 04, 2017, 06:35:22 AM
What you dont say is that if any other electrical issues appear at the same time? Do all the dash/ignition lights still come on when this happens? Does the starter spin? It may help pin point. As JS says ignition switch wiring is a known weak point, but so is main EFI relay and even a weak battery can give the symptoms
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: John Stenhouse on July 04, 2017, 09:47:06 AM
Tim makes a good point and one that might be heat related, that's the EFI relay, next time it does it give it a tap.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Chris Canning on July 04, 2017, 12:37:09 PM
Tim makes a good point and one that might be heat related, that's the EFI relay, next time it does it give it a tap.

Cost me 30 quid and solved my problem.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 04, 2017, 03:53:43 PM
Tim,
All other electrical appears to be functional, starter spins & turns over engine, lights and instruments are all operational even the clutch and side stand switches operate as normal but the fuel pump is NOT running, when this fault is present. At this moment all is fine and the bike will crank, fire and run.  I shall try the wiggling wire at ignition switch suggestion while the bike is running to see if I can replicate the fuel pump failure. I am assuming that the typical failure of a fuel pumps sudden and permanent and perhaps that is incorrect and this is a fuel pump that is giving out by way of failure followed by temporary recovery.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: tankerman on July 04, 2017, 03:58:15 PM
Does the fuel pump have a thermal cutout? Just a thought!
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 04, 2017, 04:30:07 PM
I have just started the bike and performed the wiggle the wires at ignition diagnostic ploy and the result was my attempts at wire wiggling achieved no effect on the fuel pump's operation. Could it be that my wiggle technique is inadequate or would you think that the ignition switch wiring is now eliminated as the source of all evil?
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Timbox2 on July 04, 2017, 05:28:18 PM
I had the pump go on my last Girly, but the pump still made the normal sound, just didnt supply any pressure. Have you checked the obvious, the plug that goes to the fuel pump plate
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 04, 2017, 05:45:28 PM
Tim,
This is a recurring and intermittent fuel problem, that so far has only happened when on the road somewhere.
I have been unable to get the fuel pump problem to occur in my shop. I have not had a multi meter with me on the 2 occasions that the pump "failed" so while I checked connections and fuses i was unable to verify power at the fuel pump connector for lack of a test light or multimeter in my pocket. 
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Chris Canning on July 04, 2017, 08:31:55 PM
Tim,
All other electrical appears to be functional, starter spins & turns over engine, lights and instruments are all operational even the clutch and side stand switches operate as normal but the fuel pump is NOT running,

Mine was exactly the same in fact when I was pressing the starter and the motor was just turning over and not firing Tim was sat next too me in the traffic with his new 1050.

It was only when I realised that when I turned the ignition on the relay and the fuel pump chimed in together no fuel pump no click in the relay,left hand stretched to the ignition right ear too the relay  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 06, 2017, 02:12:23 AM
Chris,
I have ordered a replacement pump from the nice oriental gentleman on eBay for $30 USD. Hoping that this will solve the problem as did yours. Did your Triumph pump quit and stay or did it recover several times and then quit forever. I am wondering if these pumps typically expire after  several temporary failures. I am recollecting that I was stranded when my Chevrolet's pump quit and I was told that I might revive it by striking the fuel tank in the location of the pump, I followed the instructions and the thing started working again.' enabling me to drive to the shop for a replacement.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Timbox2 on July 06, 2017, 06:19:32 AM
Chris,
I have ordered a replacement pump from the nice oriental gentleman on eBay for $30 USD. Hoping that this will solve the problem as did yours. Did your Triumph pump quit and stay or did it recover several times and then quit forever. I am wondering if these pumps typically expire after  several temporary failures. I am recollecting that I was stranded when my Chevrolet's pump quit and I was told that I might revive it by striking the fuel tank in the location of the pump, I followed the instructions and the thing started working again.' enabling me to drive to the shop for a replacement.

Chris' problem was cured by a new RELAY, not pump?
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 06, 2017, 03:38:13 PM
Thanks for that.
When checking Triumph service manual I find a caution that bikes post vin 89737 use a different electrical schematic. So, as my bike is beyond that number I referred to the appropriate schematic only to find there is no fuel pump relay indicated. Where to go now?
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 06, 2017, 03:41:19 PM
Since previous post I have checked the Haynes service manual and it mentions "fuel pump relay where fitted" perhaps indicating that there may not be a relay on my bike.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Timbox2 on July 06, 2017, 04:03:59 PM
Thanks for that.
When checking Triumph service manual I find a caution that bikes post vin 89737 use a different electrical schematic. So, as my bike is beyond that number I referred to the appropriate schematic only to find there is no fuel pump relay indicated. Where to go now?

Its not a Fuel Pump relay as such, its what Triumph call the EFI relay or even ECM relay, its one of the relays near the fusebox but not sure which
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Chris Canning on July 06, 2017, 04:39:29 PM
If you go to World of Triumph

It's EFI relay number 30
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on July 06, 2017, 05:46:34 PM
Further study of the Fuel System / Engine Management detail schematics indicates that there is no relay for the fuel pump circuit. So now that a faulty relay is out of the mix now enters the ECM as a possible source of the problem or might also be a faulty ground if the ECM is not the ground.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Chris Canning on July 06, 2017, 06:17:38 PM
The relay is what I mentioned EFI relay number 30 when that didn't click I still had power for lights etc and it would even turn the motor over but it wouldn't prime the fuel pump and hence not fire.

Tim had the fuel pump go belly up mine was just above.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Sin_Tiger on July 06, 2017, 09:43:55 PM
The ECU controls the fuel pump operation on the Keihin ECU's, the relay Chris and Tim are referring to is the one that supplies power to the ECU I/O circuits.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Timbox2 on July 06, 2017, 09:56:32 PM
The ECU controls the fuel pump operation on the Keihin ECU's, the relay Chris and Tim are referring to is the one that supplies power to the ECU I/O circuits.

Think its similar on the Sagem too, and what can happen and think this happened to Chris's bike is that if the relay is a bit flaky it doesnt supply enough voltage to the ECM and hence ECM doesnt supply volts to pump
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on September 06, 2017, 04:41:09 PM
I'm back, lot's going on in my life, 14 year old grandson has come to live with me building a new room for him, bought a laptop Windoze computer and loaded on TuneEcu, drivers etc. bike shows 3 error codes; P0135 O2 sensor, P0463 fuel sensor and P0230 fuel pump relay default. I have ordered a new relay and trust this will put an end to the bike leaving me on the side of the road. Thank you all for the replies and help. Hoping that TuneECU is going to be a good diagnostic tool.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Bixxer Bob on September 07, 2017, 07:32:32 PM
If you clear the codes, just check back on the O2 sensor fault.  If it shows again and is iffy, you'll be trimming the fuelling out of range massively rich or weak depending on which way it's failed.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on September 12, 2017, 02:12:57 PM
Bob,
I have not cleared the O2 sensor fault code and cannot find the actual sensor which I believe Triumph refers to as a lambda sensor on the wiring diagram (from vin 89737) it is keyed as #45, nor is there the box / catalyst in the exhaust system that the sensor would be fitted to. It would seem previous owner did some mods that eliminated the sensor and box. As the O2 sensor info seems to be unavailable to the ECU I have no idea where to start, the bike runs well although fuel consumption is usually 35 / 37 mpg which may be a bit excessive.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Bixxer Bob on September 12, 2017, 05:15:32 PM
Ok.  Mine didn't have a catalyst, just a down pipe link pipe and can.  The O2 sensor was in the down pipe on the right hand side.  If you don't have one I suspect the previous owner will have plugged an O2 sensor eliminator into the loom under the tank on top of the cylinder head on the left hand side.  Don't worry about the other loose plug under there, it's for the California emmisions crap that most don't have.  If the owner has fitted a bypass it's just a black plastic device as shown.  If not, that would explain the error message.

Your fuel consumption is high,  55 mpg taking it easy, 45mpg otherwise.  They are English gallons.

Sooo,  if you don't have a sensor in the pipe you need to check whether you have a bypass.  If you don't have a bypass you should think about getting one.  Once you have one fitted blow in a complete fresh map and you should be good to go although you might have to play with those IACV steps some more.

Incidentally,  in thses circumstances, to make sure the whole map is re-installedand the trims reset, not just reflashing the tables, I used to load a non- tiger map, then load a clean tiger map.  It's the only was I was confident that the trim settings had been cleared and I was starting from a factory-fresh baseline.  Seemed to work.  Good luck!!!
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on September 13, 2017, 04:14:50 PM
Bob,
Thank you for the helpful info. I have looked at the downpipes and from what is visible without removing stone shield? there is no O2 sensor in the headers. I am unable to investigate further as I have just returned from hospital where I have been diagnosed as having a broken humerus (not humorous) on the right side (I am right handed) and this is seriously limiting my wrenching and riding abilities, such as they are. It may be a few weeks before I am able to ascertain sensor / bypass etc Rats, we are just coming into primo riding weather and I am going to miss my annual ride to Leeds, AL for the Vintage Fest at Barber.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Timbox2 on September 13, 2017, 07:01:57 PM
On the 885 the O2 sensor, if fitted, was in the pipe just before the square collector/catalyst box underneath the rear of the engine
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on September 13, 2017, 09:32:05 PM
The bike is a 2000 model Tiger vin 94984, there is no collector / catalyst box and all the piping looks as if factory. What will be the advantage of omitting / bypassing this sensor? The can is the Triumph TOR version so the exhaust system has been modified but until I regain use of my arm I will not know more such as sensor bypass, wiring, etc.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: Chris Canning on September 14, 2017, 09:06:36 AM
When the TOR was sold for the 885i it came as a kit,you had a straight through pipe that replaced the square collector.

Despite having two 885i's engine and electrics they have zero in common with the 955 and I never tried the an 02 plug on either of the 885's because no such thing was available at the time.

The discussion with or without the 02 tends go go around in circles like the plug itself  :icon_wink:

I ran my second 885i with the TOR and bypass pipe to be honest I can't even remember if it had the map to go with it but what I do remember the engine ran better with the square collector can on and it gave more bottom end torque where as with the straight through pipe it gave more top end and to try and give the motor as easy time as pos put a 19 tooth engine sprocket on.
Title: Re: Fuel pump (sometimes) Tiger 885i
Post by: TR5TRIDER on September 14, 2017, 03:10:18 PM
The TOR can with straight thru pipe and elimination of collector box would seem to be what is on my bike. It runs well in my experience which is always highway miles and speeds, as I live in the rural countryside, 15 miles from anywhere. The performance is good, although she has a heavy fuel consumption / addiction. I would like to deal with the fuel consumption at some time and as there seems not to be a location for installation of the O2 sensor I think to leave it as it is.